OK -it's 10 am - let's start
[10:00] DanielPerry Laa: Can anyine update us on the move to our new digs?
[10:00] DanielPerry Laa: Hi Suemoon!
[10:01] Suemoon Magic: Hi everyone
[10:01] DanielPerry Laa: I know that Agenda is working busily on the arrangements so we will wait for an update from her!
[10:02] Tim Faith: I'm a tenant there
[10:02] Tim Faith: last time I visited, things were in process
[10:02] DanielPerry Laa: Tim - a tenant already - oh, was pre-existing, reight?
[10:02] Ellen Ireland: I plan to rent a "storefront office" when they are available
[10:02] Tim Faith: Lexis was the pre-existing tenant; I'm new
[10:02] DanielPerry Laa: Ellen - terrific - please keep us posted.
[10:03] Sam Courtois. Esq.: Generally, the sea level parcels are taken - there are about 2 left.
[10:03] DanielPerry Laa: OK, we have a short meeting today.
[10:03] Sam Courtois. Esq.: The Village is not yet completed, however, Agenda has been pretty busy lately.
[10:04] Sam Courtois. Esq.: Anyoene interested in a sea level parcel should let me know as soon as possible, as they won't last.
[10:04] Ellen Ireland: I'm trying not to be too greedy although I've packed the parcel I bought to nearly the last prim. :-)
[10:04] DanielPerry Laa: I have been asked by a number of "meeting challenged: individuals to constrict the meetings and keep them "punchier" - since the same people came to our biard meetings stick for the "larger" meeting, it only made sense to combine them. Of course, Sam may chose to hold bard meetings - that's up to him and he new board
[10:05] DanielPerry Laa: Hi Baeric!
[10:05] Baeric Constantine: Hello :)
[10:05] DanielPerry Laa: OK, I wanted to address a "possible" group project. Agenda had discussed with us - over several occasions - the possibility of holding a number of SL presentations
[10:06] DanielPerry Laa: One presentation revolved around fair use with the express goal of answering concerns of SL developers.
[10:07] DanielPerry Laa: In researching the concept and discussing with some RL lawyers, most scoffed at any direct application in the absence of a "body" of SL law.
[10:07] DanielPerry Laa: That registered with me as I recalled a book on the attemtp to develop a body of Internet law.
[10:08] DanielPerry Laa: I recognize that I have proposed an audacious project, that is, the development of a body of "SL Law"
[10:09] DanielPerry Laa: I posted a website link (I am sure you all received it) to a PDF excerpt from the book - hope yiu have had a chance to read it. In short, the idea revocves aroun d using "custom" to develope "best practices or communities of practice" which would be recognizable to a RL judge.
[10:10] DanielPerry Laa: I recognize that this may have been casually attemted before. But, if adopted as a SLBA project. it will certainly attratc attention and publicity
[10:10] DanielPerry Laa: It will require a group adoption becasue the ffort will be bigger than any one of us
[10:10] Baeric Constantine: I have seen the link, but have no read it, however, one question... assuming you saucceed and we get SL law... how does one propose to enforce it?
[10:11] Ellen IrelandEllen Ireland raises hand
[10:11] Baeric Constantine: not* succeed*
[10:11] Suemoon Magic: Obviously guidelines because it will have authority over no one?
[10:11] Ellen Ireland: Perhaps if we offered mediation or arbitration services through SL?
[10:11] DanielPerry Laa: Once the SL folks recognize that this "custom" is adopted by a RL judge we will get the benefit of enforcement. Also, eventually, LL may jump on board.
[10:11] Suemoon Magic: that would be cool
[10:12] DanielPerry Laa: Also, if LL endorses it, then we may be able to get it inlcuded ina TOS
[10:12] DanielPerry Laa: I agree that mediation/arbitration will be a "value-added" service
[10:12] Suemoon Magic: There already is mediation here? Someone mentioned that last meetin?
[10:13] Baeric Constantine: If is a very big word.... Yes, the Second Life People's Court
[10:13] DanielPerry Laa: Mediation exists in SL but it does not, to my understanding, ejnjoy any prevalence or success. Des anyne have different knowledge?
[10:13] Ellen Ireland: There may still be room for private, voluntary mediation and arbitration. I don't think the existing services are very well known
[10:14] DanielPerry Laa: I am not claiming this effort wqill be historic - but why not try? If we start the dialog, we will benfit from the attention.
[10:14] DanielPerry Laa: Thoughts?
[10:14] Sam Courtois. Esq.: It is too bad that Chris Wycliffe could not be here today, she has indicated to me that ther has been a great deal of work over several years done on this project alread, We should consieder building on that foundation.
[10:15] DanielPerry Laa: Chris Wycliffe = avatar or RL?
[10:15] Ellen Ireland: Yes, if there is work already done, that makes most sense to me
[10:15] Ellen Ireland: Does she use that name for this work?
[10:16] DanielPerry Laa: Will she allow us to coopt that effort for the benefit of SLBA or would she want us to work under their/her name?
[10:16] DanielPerry Laa: Hi Soro
[10:16] Sam Courtois. Esq.: No, she has two SL ide3ntities, one is Chris and the other is ElizabethEsq.
[10:17] DanielPerry Laa: If there is a pre-exisitng body of work we should try to incorproate that effort
[10:17] DanielPerry Laa: Hi Tellagu
[10:17] Ellen Ireland: If there is going to be any committee formed to work on this, it sounds like she should be invited to join it
[10:17] Jonathan Kramer: Hi all.. sorry to be late. really hat SL software.
[10:18] DanielPerry Laa: I had not considered the idea of committees. If we are goign to make a splash, we need all hands on deck ... what else are we goign to work on?
[10:18] DanielPerry Laa: No problem Jonathan.
[10:19] DanielPerry Laa: Any other thiughts?
[10:20] Ellen Ireland: I used the word committee because it's a format most familiar to us from RL for "meetings between the meetings." But we could call it something else.
[10:20] Sam Courtois. Esq.: Do you propose that we start meeting on this subject? Do you have a schedule in mind?
[10:20] Lexis Looming: Hello everyone. Sorry to be late. I have recently been contacted by Atreyu Starsider who is from Ne Zealand and runs a peoples Court in SL and invited our participation
[10:20] Suemoon Magic: Use the web site to draft documents?
[10:20] DanielPerry Laa: Ellen, I get your point. My thought is that this project may be overdue.
[10:21] DanielPerry Laa: I agree that sue of the website is paramount. We have enough meetings ijn RL, dont we?
[10:21] Suemoon Magic: We just taled about that Lexis
[10:21] Suemoon Magic: *talked, lol
[10:21] Lexis Looming: Ok. As I said, sorry I am late
[10:22] Ellen Ireland: It would be interesting to know more about the People's Court and other alternative dispute resolution systems already in existence
[10:22] DanielPerry Laa: Sam, I am going to propose several highly publicied listening meetings in SL where we invite sl designers to come address us with their issues
[10:22] DanielPerry Laa: publicized
[10:23] Sam Courtois. Esq.: Sounds good.
[10:23] Sam Courtois. Esq.: What do you ahve im mind?
[10:23] DanielPerry Laa: Ellen, there is a court in SL - I expect that we would solicit their input/invovlement as well.
[10:23] Ellen Ireland: That sounds good to me. (reading)
[10:24] Lexis Looming: I will pass on a copy of his note card to anyone who likes
[10:24] DanielPerry Laa: OK, how about this: We announce the first "listening" meeting to be held at our January meeting. This should give us time to publicize it.
[10:24] Suemoon Magic: The link to the page: http://www.slba.info/
[10:24] Suemoon Magic: I would be intersted in the notecard Lexis
[10:25] Lexis Looming: I alos think we have a more current page at Ning Suemoon
[10:25] Suemoon Magic: OK, Link?
[10:25] DanielPerry Laa: In trhe meantime, using the website, let's flesh out the project and anticipate completion within say 4 months (or by the may meeting) and the presentatrion of our findings at the June meeting
[10:25] DanielPerry Laa: Perhaps ambitious but in Internet time, 6 months to findings may seem too slow
[10:26] DanielPerry Laa: If we are all supportive, we should be able to do so.
[10:26] Sam Courtois. Esq.: Perhaps you can provide us with a detailed outline Dan?
[10:26] DanielPerry Laa: It will require mire attention to our website but we need to do that anyway
[10:26] Lexis Looming: the Ning page is: http://slbarassn.ning.com/
[10:27] Suemoon Magic: Thanks
[10:27] DanielPerry Laa: I can provide you with a more detailed outline. I will post an entry on the website with more detail by next Wednesday
[10:27] Sam Courtois. Esq.: Great!
[10:27] DanielPerry Laa: Let me ask - is this so ething you all would be supportive of?
[10:27] DanielPerry Laa: something
[10:28] Ellen Ireland: Working with what has already been done and doing our own project wouldn't be mutually exclusive, it seems
[10:28] Tim Faith: so our objective is to develop a body of law to govern disputes in SL?
[10:28] DanielPerry Laa: Correct, Tim AND, just as importantly, a body of law which could be recognized in a RL court
[10:28] Julynn Lilliehook: why do we need law here?
[10:29] Soro DagostinoSoro Dagostino raises hand
[10:29] Baeric Constantine: I have just been informed of a serious issue.... a resident: lllFilipolll Resident, has set up a site http://marketplaceseondlife.co.nu/store/16071994/login.htm with the intention of phishing people's login data. For mor info, please read: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Account/i-lost-my-account-there-... This is first attempt like this, that is known to me. I just wanted to bring an awareness.
[10:29] DanielPerry Laa: Good question Julynn - we already have multiple jurisdictions - what I am proposing is trying to harmonize those issues aroud a custom of SL
[10:30] DanielPerry Laa: Ask any SL designer and they will tell you they have no idea what law applies and where
[10:30] DanielPerry Laa: Thanks, baeric - will look into that
[10:30] Julynn Lilliehook: that's because no law does apply...and that's part of the beauty of SL
[10:30] Julynn Lilliehook: IMHO
[10:30] Suemoon Magic: Linden Lab should really have a legal team doing this but I don't think they have
[10:31] Baeric Constantine: Well, that is not entriely ture... the law and jurisdiction of California apply
[10:31] DanielPerry Laa: Actually, Suemoon, law does apply here in SL. If necessary, one could point to various souresz of law: LL TOS, California Codes (since LL is badsed there, law where servers are located, etc.
[10:31] DanielPerry Laa: based
[10:32] DanielPerry Laa: Typonese
[10:32] Tim Faith: & federal copyright and trademark law
[10:32] Soro Dagostino: The SCPC uses a broad, generalized base of Common Law.
[10:32] DanielPerry Laa: Good point, Tm
[10:32] DanielPerry Laa: Tim
[10:32] Julynn Lilliehook: California applies if you want to sue LL...but it doesn't apply between two useers
[10:32] Soro Dagostino: SLPC*
[10:32] Julynn Lilliehook: *users
[10:33] Baeric Constantine: But that is where it needs to start, Julynn...
[10:33] DanielPerry Laa: Julynn - it COULD be invoked between users. But the pint is that WE can develop a body of law revolving arund custom in SL
[10:33] Soro Dagostino: Many of the judges are from non-english law jurisdictions.
[10:33] DanielPerry Laa: Exactly, Soro.
[10:33] Jonathan Kramer: Doesn't this suggestthat should hrmoniz our effortswith LL to have them eventiually recognze the body of las we're talking about?
[10:33] DanielPerry Laa: Good point Jonathan - I expect that LL will be interested in the effort
[10:34] Soro Dagostino: The way SLPC is "keeping" the word of law, is by archiving its rulings in writing.
[10:34] DanielPerry Laa: IT s past 10:30 so the meeting is technically over but I will remain to answer questions for alittle longer
[10:34] DanielPerry Laa: Soro - can we access to those rulings?
[10:34] Soro Dagostino: I believe they are available.
[10:34] Baeric Constantine: For the most part, yes, the rulings can be accessed
[10:34] Starlight Darkmatter: If anything there should be a section on the DMCA, and how to go about filiing one
[10:34] Soro Dagostino: I have written one or two.
[10:34] Suemoon Magic: cool ,published case law ㋡
[10:35] Sam Courtois. Esq.: Great turnout Dan - this looks like a soild start.
[10:35] Lexis Looming: I disagree that no law applies here. I think it is clear that law applies in SL as everywhere, the issue to me is affordable means of enforcement. RL courts are too complex and expensive for most SL disputes unless real large sums of money is are at stake as may be the case with trademark, copyright or other IP disputes
[10:35] DanielPerry Laa: Starlight - DMCA is an impt area, thanks!
[10:35] Sam Courtois. Esq.: We will all look forward to your outline and summary.
[10:35] Ellen Ireland: The essence of the historical development of common law :-)
[10:35] Suemoon Magic: ㋡
[10:35] DanielPerry Laa: Once agin, is this something the SLBA can get behind?
[10:36] Baeric Constantine: Yes, I think they should
[10:36] Tim Faith: to lexis' point - the big issue is likely obtaining personal jurisdiction, particularly over a non-US citizen
[10:36] Baeric Constantine: The more legal weight behind it, the more likely people are going to listen
[10:36] DanielPerry Laa: Jurisdiction - will be on the outline (oh boy!)
[10:36] Soro Dagostino: What's necessary is keen observers and a specific recitation of facts.
[10:36] DanielPerry Laa: Exactly, Baeric!
[10:36] Lexis Looming: jurisdiction can be obtained in their domicile, that is why it is too expensive and complex
[10:36] Julynn Lilliehook: are we just wanting law so we have something to do here? Or is it really a need the community is aasking for?
[10:37] Baeric Constantine: I think its both
[10:37] Soro Dagostino: I agree.
[10:37] Baeric Constantine: The community are asking for dispute resolution....
[10:37] Suemoon Magic: When you sign up for SL don't you "agree" to LL's juridiction or authority?
[10:37] Baeric Constantine: and Atreyu is providing it
[10:37] Tim Faith: sue - as to your relationship with Linden Labs - yes
[10:37] Lexis Looming: By the way the UN has an arbitration facility. In some RL contracts for SL business I have incorporated it
[10:37] DanielPerry Laa: Julynn: Good question. I ahve heard this issue touched on for years but am unaware of anyone grabbing the bull by the horns. Why shoudn't we do so? A big hairy audacious goal is better than no goal at all!
[10:38] Baeric Constantine: The UN have little or no bite... the EU on the other hand...
[10:38] Baeric Constantine: do
[10:38] Julynn Lilliehook: Well I would rather see our efforts in educating people about RL law around the world
[10:39] Baeric Constantine: greater awareness of all things cyber is good
[10:39] DanielPerry Laa: RL law around the world? You meant SL, didn't you?
[10:39] Baeric Constantine: not simply SL focused
[10:39] Tim Faith: dan, do you have a motion pending?
[10:39] Starlight Darkmatter: If you can do anything to get rid of spammers that would be great
[10:39] Julynn Lilliehook: no...I mean RL alw
[10:39] DanielPerry Laa: SL focus - seems to me that is OUR focus already
[10:39] Suemoon Magic: I'm putting together a resource for the librarians on free legal resources
[10:39] Soro Dagostino: That might take a few centuries.
[10:39] Soro Dagostino: :)
[10:40] DanielPerry Laa: LOL! Soro
[10:40] Baeric Constantine: Governments need to mainstream Inet Law
[10:40] DanielPerry Laa: I am a big fan of education - but this SL focus strikes me as doable
[10:40] Baeric Constantine: BAILLI is one Sue
[10:40] Suemoon Magic: Thanks, yes
[10:41] Ellen Ireland: Here's an example of how the existence of in-world dispute resolution systems is not known to the general SL public: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussions/is-there-a-s...
[10:41] Baeric Constantine: Assuming LL agree... if they dont....? And it seems LL are not too interested in getting invovled in personal disputes.
[10:41] DanielPerry Laa: This effort does NOT hinge on LL's interest - BUT if LL becomes interested then so be it.
[10:42] Suemoon Magic: They should want to keep their customers happy
[10:42] Baeric Constantine: should want to and doing it... not the same. Unfortunately LL has a habit of NOT listening to its Residents... v2 is a direct example of that
[10:42] Baeric Constantine: ...but for now, I need to run...
[10:42] DanielPerry Laa: OK, lert's recap, I am goign to ost a more extensive outlien and incorporate some or all of your observations - see the website for detailsa and please partiicipate - we wneed all hand son deck.
[10:42] DanielPerry Laa: Post
[10:42] Jonathan Kramer: Ellen, *very* interesting link. THx.
[10:43] DanielPerry Laa: Have I a motion for adjournment?
[10:43] Ellen IrelandEllen Ireland listens to the silence .....
[10:43] Ellen Ireland: Since no one else is moving ....so moved
[10:44] DanielPerry Laa: Second?
[10:44] Suemoon Magic: 2nd
[10:44] Jonathan Kramer: Second
[10:44] Tim Faith: second
[10:44] DanielPerry Laa: All in favor?
[10:44] Suemoon Magic: lol
[10:44] Julynn Lilliehook: aye
[10:44] Baeric Constantine: aye
[10:44] Suemoon Magic: aye
[10:44] Baeric Constantine: take care all
[10:44] Jonathan Kramer: i-i
[10:44] DanielPerry Laa: Very well - thanks - we are adjourned!